1 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS 2 SAN ANTONIO DIVISION 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) CASE NO. SA:05-CV-01056 ) 4 Plaintiff, ) ) 5 VS. ) SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS ) 6 HENRY GOLTZ, ) ) 7 Defendant ) FEBRUARY 2ND, 2006 8 9 10 ********************************************** TRANSCRIPT OF PETITION TO ENFORCE IRS SUMMONS 11 BEFORE THE HONORABLE ROYAL FURGESON 12 UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE 13 ********************************************** 14 15 16 17 On the 2nd day of February 2006, the following 18 proceedings came on to be heard in the above-entitled and 19 numbered cause before the Honorable Royal Ferguson, Judge 20 presiding, held in San Antonio, Bexar, Texas: 21 Proceedings reported by Machine Shorthand. 22 23 24 25 2 1 APPEARANCES 2 ATTORNEY FOR PETITIONER: CRAIG A. GARGOTTA 3 U.S. ATTORNEY'S OFFICE THE PYRAMID BUILDING 4 601 NORTHWEST LOOP 410, SUITE 600 SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78216 5 (210) 384-7325 6 ATTORNEY FOR RESPONDENT: HENRY D. GOLTZ (PRO SE) 7 P.O. BOX 690126 SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78269 8 (210) 269-6279 9 ALSO PRESENT: ARLINDA RODRIGUEZ 10 Deputy Court Reporter 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 EXAMINATION INDEX 2 VICK DIETZ 3 DIRECT BY MR. GARGOTTA . . . . . . . . 6 CROSS BY MR. GOLTZ . . . . . . . . . 22 4 HENRY GOLTZ 5 DIRECT BY MR. GOLTZ . . . . . . . . 49 CROSS BY MR. GARGOTTA . . . . . . . . 53 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 (Proceedings began at 8:14 a.m.) 2 THE COURT: Will the clerk call the case. 3 THE CLERK: SA: 05-CA-1056, 4 United States v. Henry Goltz. 5 THE COURT: Can I have announcements for 6 the government. 7 MR. GARGOTTA: Good morning, Your Honor. 8 Craig Gargotta with the U.S. Attorney's Office on behalf 9 of the United States. I apologize for being late. I 10 apologize to Mr. Goltz for holding you up this morning. 11 THE COURT: Well, actually, you didn't 12 hold me up because I wanted Mr. Goltz to read the law. 13 So I gave him a copy of the law. 14 MR. GARGOTTA: Yes, sir. 15 THE COURT: So glad to have you here. 16 Thank you, Mr. Gargotta. Mr. Goltz, if you'll come 17 forward. Please be seated. 18 (Complies) 19 THE COURT: Mr. Gargotta, would you like 20 to call your agent as a witness as to the alleged 21 failure of Mr. Goltz to comply with the law. 22 MR. GARGOTTA: Certainly, Your Honor. I 23 call Mr. Dietz. 24 THE COURT: Yes, sir. If you'll please 25 come forward. 5 1 (Witness sworn) 2 THE COURT: You may proceed. 3 MR. GARGOTTA: Thank you, Your Honor. 4 VICK DIETZ, 5 having been first duly sworn, testified as follows: 6 DIRECT EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. GARGOTTA: 8 Q. Mr. Dietz, before we begin, would you explain 9 to the Court, is Vick Dietz your real name? 10 A. Vick Dietz is a pseudonym that I use. 11 Q. And will you explain? Go ahead. I'm sorry. 12 A. Vick Dietz is a pseudonym that I use in my 13 job. 14 Q. Okay. And will you explain to the Court why 15 you use a pseudonym? 16 A. Yes. I use a pseudonym because of certain 17 instances that have occurred in the past with other 18 employees where bogus liens can be filed against us, 19 harassment to our family, harassment to ourselves. And, 20 therefore, we were given an option of whether we wanted 21 to use a pseudonym and I chose to use one. 22 Q. Can you explain what your position is with the 23 IRS currently? 24 A. I'm a revenue officer. I work in the 25 collections division. 6 1 Q. And how long have you worked with the IRS? 2 A. I've been working with the IRS for about 18 3 and a half years. 4 Q. Could you briefly explain to the Court what 5 positions you've held with the IRS. 6 A. I've only been a revenue officer with IRS. 7 That's the only position I've had. 8 Q. Sir, could you briefly explain to the Court 9 what your duties are as a revenue officer for the IRS. 10 A. Basically, what I'm required to do is conduct 11 investigations regarding non-filing of tax returns. 12 These can be 1040 returns, business employment tax 13 returns. I'm also -- I also conduct investigations into 14 the nonpayment of tax accounts. And in the course of my 15 investigation, I interview taxpayers, third parties. I 16 also issue summonses to secure information or testimony. 17 Q. Roughly, would you advise the Court as to how 18 many matters you've probably handled as a revenue 19 officer over the years? 20 A. How many tax cases? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. Oh, boy. Probably -- I don't know. Maybe 23 600, 800 cases. 24 Q. All right. Sir, I'd like to focus your 25 attention on the matter before the Court today; that 7 1 being the United States v. Goltz. Would you explain to 2 the Court how you became involved in this matter. 3 A. Yes. The case was assigned to me. As cases 4 normally come out to the field, cases are either 5 assigned as investigations into the non-filing of 6 returns, which we call delinquent return investigations 7 and balance due account investigations. 8 The case came out. It was assigned to me 9 as a balance due account, which means that there were 10 assessments already made. And I started working the 11 case once I got the assignment. 12 Q. And could you briefly explain to the Court 13 which assessments and which tax periods and liabilities 14 you're referring to? 15 A. If I recall correctly, it's 1040 tax 16 liabilities for 1999 and 2001. I'm not sure since I 17 don't have anything in front of me. But I believe it's 18 two tax years, and there's also some returns that have 19 not been filed. 20 Q. Okay. Sir, once you made a determination that 21 there had been some un-filed returns and some periods in 22 which liabilities had not been paid, what were you 23 required to do under the Internal Revenue code? 24 A. I'm required to either secure the returns from 25 the taxpayer voluntarily, secure financial information 8 1 from the taxpayer if they are not able to pay. First of 2 all, we ask them for payment. If they're not able to 3 pay, then we secure a financial statement. 4 And once we analyze that information, 5 then we make a collection determination as to whether 6 the individual can pay the tax based on information that 7 they provide, based on supporting documents that they 8 have provided us, such as copies of bank statements, 9 mortgage statements, and medical bills, receipts. 10 Things of that nature. And once we make that 11 determination, then we either explain to the tax payer 12 this is how much we show that you can pay per month. 13 If there is assets that are disclosed in 14 the financial analysis, then we ask the taxpayer to 15 either attempt to borrow against the equity of the 16 assets or to liquidate. If it's an asset or assets that 17 can be liquidated, then we ask them to do that. 18 If that does not work out, then we 19 consider maybe an installment agreement once all the 20 other -- all the other avenues have been considered. 21 Q. So in sum, it's a twofold process. One, make 22 a determination on the tax liability. And then, second, 23 make a determination as to whether or not the IRS can 24 collect that liability? 25 A. That is correct. 9 1 Q. Sir, how did you initiate contact with 2 Respondent Mr. Goltz? 3 A. I'm required to make a field visit to the last 4 address that we have on file; and, therefore, I did 5 that. I made my -- I planned my trip. I went to try to 6 locate Mr. Goltz and went to the address that was on 7 file and I spoke to him. 8 Q. And, briefly, could you explain to the Court 9 what the course of the discussion you had with him was 10 when you made that initial contact? 11 A. Yes. When I -- well, let me back up a little 12 bit. When I got to the house, no one answered the 13 door. So I went to the neighbor, and I asked if he knew 14 if the taxpayer lived there. The neighbor acknowledged 15 that Mr. Goltz lives there, but I believe that he said 16 that he was not there. That he had seen him leave. 17 So I proceeded to go back to the front 18 door to leave a calling card. And I had already with me 19 a summons for the delinquent returns. I had that 20 prepared, and I was going to leave that in a sealed 21 envelope taped to the front door. 22 At that point, Mr. Goltz -- or a 23 gentleman pulled up in the driveway. And I approached 24 him, showed him my credentials, and I asked him if he 25 was Henry Goltz. And I believe he answered, Who wants 10 1 to know? So I explained to him that I was a revenue 2 officer, and I was assigned a collection case and I 3 needed to talk to him about that and about collecting 4 the liability. 5 He said something to the effect that he 6 was entitled to privacy. And at that point, I believe 7 that I asked him if Angelina Goltz was his wife, and he 8 said that he didn't know who she was. So when I 9 realized that I was not going to get anywhere, I served 10 him the summonses. 11 Q. And what does a summons require the respondent 12 to do? 13 A. There were two summonses that were served. 14 One of the summonses was asking the taxpayer to produce 15 records regarding his financial information, such as 16 bank statements, title of ownership to vehicles. And 17 the second summons was asking for records pertaining to 18 the two years, I believe, two returns that had not been 19 filed. And that's basically what the summons is. 20 Q. And, sir, is that the summons that you 21 provided the U.S. Attorney's Office on a referral that 22 we attach as an exhibit to the petition? 23 A. Yes, it is. 24 Q. Okay. Would you briefly explain to the Court, 25 did Mr. Goltz respond to the summons? Did he come to 11 1 your office at the appointed time? 2 A. Yes, he did. Actually, I believe that I 3 got -- I don't recall, but I either got a fax from 4 Mr. Goltz or a letter from him. And he was asking to 5 record the meeting when he was coming in. And I believe 6 that I faxed him a response saying that his request was 7 granted as far as bringing in a recording device. 8 Mr. Goltz came in on the date that the 9 summons called for, and I proceeded to ask him just 10 general questions regarding what the summons was asking 11 for. And he challenged -- first of all, he challenged 12 my authority to get testimony via the summons. And I 13 believe that the challenge was that I had to provide to 14 him a delegation order showing that I was actually 15 authorized to seek testimony. 16 We met approximately three or four 17 times. And every time that we met, it was pretty much 18 the same thing -- recordings and the same challenge that 19 he was raising. But I did give him a copy of the 20 delegation order, what I could find in my office, and he 21 said that was not acceptable, that I believe he wanted a 22 copy of the original delegation order. And I told him 23 that I could not give him that because I was not in 24 possession of that. 25 Q. Who holds that, if you know? 12 1 A. I really don't know, but I believe that it's 2 somewhere in our national office. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. In D.C. 5 Q. And when you talk about a delegation order, 6 could you explain to the Court what that is, please, 7 sir? 8 A. A delegation order -- and there's many 9 delegation orders. But a delegation order is -- let's 10 see if I can simplify this. It's a delegation coming 11 from the commissioner in which he is authorizing certain 12 employees of the IRS to seek testimony. And in this 13 particular case, it's to seek testimony regarding the 14 summons the issuance of the summons. 15 A revenue office is one of the employees 16 who is delegated. There are other employees as well 17 that can get that information, but a revenue officer is 18 one of the employees that's on the list of the 19 delegations. 20 Q. And with regard to the information that you 21 were soliciting, is it your practice -- I think the form 22 that you-all use to solicit this information is known as 23 a Form 433-A? 24 A. The form 433-A is the collection information 25 statement for individuals that we use all the time to 13 1 secure the financial information. 2 Q. Okay. And did Mr. Goltz provide any of the 3 information that you requested pursuant to Form 433-A? 4 A. No, he did not. When we did meet in my 5 office, I did ask him questions pertaining to the 6 financial information that's on the 433-A. And he 7 either answered, It's private or No, I'm not going to 8 give you the information. 9 Q. So the sum of it is: You did meet with 10 Mr. Goltz on a number of occasions, possibly four 11 times. He did not provide the information that you 12 requested pursuant to the summons. Is that accurate? 13 A. Yes, it is. 14 Q. As a result of his refusal to comply, what 15 happened next? 16 A. Well, the last meeting that we held in my 17 office was a result of my referring the summons for 18 enforcement through our district council. And at that 19 point, the taxpayer is issued -- they call it a last 20 chance meeting. He was issued a letter, and that was 21 telling him that he had to meet in my office on a 22 certain date at a certain time. And he did. 23 Once that took place and I still did not 24 have the information, then I think at that point I 25 submitted a declaration of my actions and it went 14 1 through your office. 2 Q. Okay. And that's why we're here today, that 3 there has not been compliance from the respondent? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. Sir, if I may refresh your recollection, just 6 so that we're clear for the record, the petition states 7 that we're seeking financial information with regard to 8 the respondent's 2000 and 2002 1040 liabilities. Is 9 that still correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And that we show income tax returns un-filed 12 for periods 1999 and 2004. Is that accurate? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. Okay. Now let's clarify one thing with regard 15 to the 2004. Did you get a return from Mr. Goltz for 16 2004? 17 A. Yes. He gave me a copy of a 1040 return for 18 2004 and a copy of a return for 1999, a 1040 return. 19 And there was nothing really on the returns. It was 20 just zeros all the way down -- no income, no deductions, 21 nothing. 22 Q. Did he attach documentation regarding expenses 23 or deductions? 24 A. No. I didn't see any. 25 Q. Did he attach anything to those returns that 15 1 you recall? 2 A. Yes. There is an attachment on each of the 3 returns. And the attachment talks about something to 4 the effect that they don't believe that -- or he doesn't 5 believe that the income is taxable or that they are not 6 required to file a return, but they are filing the 7 return. And it just goes on and on and on. It's like 8 two pages. And the return -- the copies of the returns 9 that he provided were actually joint returns with 10 Mr. Goltz and Mrs. Goltz, I'm assuming. 11 Q. Okay. Now, the information that you're 12 seeking, do you have that available to you? I mean, is 13 that something that you can obtain on your own with 14 regard to the financial information? 15 A. With regards to the financial information, 16 no. The only thing that I have that I searched on my 17 own through public records is the real estate property, 18 which is where he lives. And I found that through 19 public records. And I have also information in regards 20 to a vehicle that he owns or that he owned. And that's 21 through Department of Motor Vehicles, the DMV search. 22 Q. Generally, sir, if Mr. Goltz were to cooperate 23 with you, how long would it take, do you to think, to 24 fill out this financial information form? 25 A. It probably would not take more than an hour. 16 1 Q. Okay. And if Mr. Goltz had approached you and 2 said, Look, you know, I really just don't know how to do 3 a 1040 return, could you have assisted him with that? 4 A. Yes. Of course. 5 MR. GARGOTTA: Pass the witness, 6 Your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Thank you very much. 8 Mr. Goltz, if you'll approach the podium, and you can 9 ask questions. 10 MR. GOLTZ: Well, Judge, before we 11 start -- before I start with this witness, which I am 12 happy to do, I'd like to make a statement -- 13 THE COURT: Sir. 14 MR. GOLTZ: -- to the Court. Last week 15 when we met, you started out by saying, What is your 16 story? And at the time I said, Well, I don't really 17 have a story. I'm not here voluntarily. I'm not here 18 voluntarily today. I have been threatened by this Court 19 that if I don't appear, if I don't answer questions, if 20 I don't do whatever the Court tells me to do, that I'm 21 going to be imprisoned. Is that about correct, Judge? 22 THE COURT: If you don't comply with the 23 lawful orders of this Court, you'll be taken into 24 detention. That's true. 25 MR. GOLTZ: Okay. So what we're saying 17 1 here is, if I don't answer the questions ... 2 THE COURT: Well, you don't have to 3 answer any questions if you don't want to. This -- this 4 witness has provided the testimony necessary for this 5 hearing. 6 MR. GOLTZ: Okay. Well, then I'd like to 7 just state that there's a maxim in law -- I think a 8 maxim in life, really. I think it goes something like, 9 You ought to know with whom you deal. And, frankly, I 10 don't know you. I don't know who you are. I don't know 11 Mr. Dietz. And, apparently, nobody knows Mr. Dietz. 12 And so if I'm dealing with any of this, then I -- then 13 I'm doing it at my own peril. 14 In fact, the Supreme Court in 332 US 380, 15 which you may be familiar with, Your Honor. It's AA 16 it's Federal Crop Insurance v. Merrill. Are you 17 familiar with that case, sir? 18 THE COURT: I don't have that case in 19 front of me. 20 MR. GOLTZ: Okay. I can provide a copy 21 if you like. 22 THE COURT: I can find a copy, if I need 23 it. 24 MR. GOLTZ: I would like to quote a 25 section from that case, an abridgment of the section. 18 1 And I guess it came from a Shepardize version. It says: 2 "Anyone entering into an arrangement with the government 3 takes the risk of having accurately ascertained that he 4 who purports to act for the government stays within the 5 bounds of his authority, even though the agent himself 6 may be unaware of the limitations upon his authority." 7 So Mr. Dietz came to my house. I don't 8 know who he is. And he purports to be a representative 9 of the government. So I tried to seek information about 10 who he is. He left me, and I -- if I may, I would like 11 to just to intersperse some questions to Mr. Dietz as I 12 go through this, because this is the only way that we're 13 going to get to the real truth and the real law. 14 MR. GARGOTTA: Your Honor, if I may, I'm 15 not trying to interrupt his cross-examination of 16 Mr. Dietz. But if we're going to have testimony 17 interspersed with asking questions of the witness, then 18 I think maybe Mr. Goltz needs to be sworn in. He's also 19 a witness to this matter and he's also a party. So is 20 he testifying or is he going to be asking questions? 21 THE COURT: Well, if you're testifying, I 22 need to put you under oath. And then you will have an 23 ample opportunity to testify. In other words, your 24 opportunity now -- I didn't know if you were making an 25 opening statement. Apparently, you were trying to make 19 1 some kind of opening statement. You're welcome to do 2 that. If you want to ask the questions of the witness, 3 you're welcome to do that. If you want to testify, you 4 can be sworn in, come here, and tell me what you want to 5 tell me. 6 So it has to be -- we have to follow a 7 certain procedure. So if you want to make an opening 8 statement, you can. After you finish that opening 9 statement, you can ask the witness questions. After you 10 finish asking the witness question, if you want to 11 testify, you may take an oath to tell the truth and sit 12 here and testify. I'm going to allow you to do whatever 13 you wish to do, but we have to do it in an orderly 14 fashion. 15 MR. GOLTZ: Okay. 16 THE COURT: So do you want to make an 17 opening statement? 18 MR. GOLTZ: I guess it's a question of 19 how opening statement is defined. 20 THE COURT: You just want to tell me what 21 your position is here. 22 MR. GOLTZ: Okay. So all right. Then I 23 will -- may I have a moment? 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MR. GOLTZ: All right. Let me just say 20 1 one or two more things, and then I'll continue with the 2 cross-examination. I want to go on the record here 3 that, if anyone here thinks they are representing me, 4 they're fired. They're now fired. They're forever 5 fired. I'm not being represented by anyone. 6 And, frankly, I'm standing -- this may 7 sound weird to some people in this Court, but I'm 8 standing in God's kingdom. If this Court is not in 9 God's kingdom, then I'm not in this Court. 10 THE COURT: This is -- this is a 11 United States District Court. This is not a court of 12 God. It's a court of the Constitution. 13 MR. GOLTZ: Is this court in God's 14 kingdom? 15 THE COURT: This is a court authorized by 16 the Constitution and the laws of America. That's what 17 this is court is. You may proceed. 18 MR. GOLTZ: Okay. Well that's not really 19 responsive to my question. 20 THE COURT: I am not going to answer 21 silly questions. 22 MR. GOLTZ: Silly questions? 23 THE COURT: It's a silly question. 24 MR. GOLTZ: Okay. I'll assume it's not 25 in God's kingdom then. 21 1 CROSS-EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. GOLTZ: 3 Q. Mr. Dietz, or whoever or whatever alias you're 4 going by today, if someone walked up to you in -- in 5 your driveway and told you they were Joe Schmaltz and 6 said they want to ask questions. They want you to come 7 down and report to them, would you do it? 8 A. Well, Mr. Goltz, I probably would inform 9 myself as to who the person is and what authority he had 10 or where he was coming from before I went somewhere and 11 answered questions. 12 Q. All right. Then how would you go about that? 13 How would you do -- how would you inform yourself? 14 A. Well, I would ask questions as to who the 15 person was and where he worked, what office 16 credentials. I would ask for credentials. And normally 17 what I do -- and I'll just give you an example. Maybe 18 this will -- maybe this is what you're looking for. 19 If someone comes to my door and they say 20 they want to walk in and check my gas meter or whatever 21 it is that they're wanting to check, that they're from 22 the utility company, I normally ask for an 23 identification of that individual. And if I get the 24 identification, then I usually follow it by calling the 25 office and verifying that this person works there. 22 1 Q. Okay. You would check it out? 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. You would check it out? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Does that look familiar to you? Or if you 6 need to see it? 7 MR. GOLTZ: May I approach the witness? 8 THE COURT: You may. 9 MR. GOLTZ: Thank you. 10 A. Yes, I'm familiar with this. 11 Q. And this? 12 A. Yes. That's the summons that I issued. 13 Q. For the record, Mr. Dietz has identified these 14 summonses and a document that's entitled Provisions of 15 the Internal Revenue code. These are not things that I 16 created. That's correct, isn't that right, Mr. Dietz? 17 These are things that you provided to me? 18 A. I provided them. That is correct. 19 MR. GOLTZ: Okay. All right. Judge, I 20 would like for Mr. Dietz to read a section of this. Is 21 that fine? 22 THE COURT: That's fine. 23 MR. GOLTZ: Okay. 24 Q. (BY MR. GOLTZ) Mr. Dietz, would you read, 25 well, basically, the first paragraph. And then maybe a 23 1 few words from the -- a few words from each of the 2 subparagraphs. 3 A. Provisions of the Internal Revenue code, 4 Section 6702. Examination of books and witnesses, 5 (A) Authority to summon, et cetera, for the purpose of 6 ascertaining the correctness of any return, making a 7 return where none has been made, determining the 8 liability of any person for any Internal Revenue tax or 9 the liability at law, or an equity of any transferee or 10 fiduciary of any person in respect of any Internal 11 Revenue tax or collecting any such liability, the 12 Secretary is authorized. 13 Q. Could you pause there for a moment. Repeat 14 that last phrase? 15 A. The Secretary is authorized. 16 Q. Okay. To? 17 A. Number 1, to examine any books, papers, 18 records, or data which may be relevant or material to 19 such inquiry. 20 Q. And No. 2? 21 A. And, No. 2, to summon the person liable for 22 tax or required to perform the act. 23 Q. Okay. And No. 3? 24 A. To take such testimony of the person 25 concerned. 24 1 Q. Okay. That's good. Thank you. So, 2 Mr. Dietz, if I understand what you just read off your 3 document, it says the Secretary is authorized to examine 4 books, to take testimony, to issue summons; is that 5 correct? 6 A. That is correct. That's what that says. 7 Q. Okay. When we first met -- well, that was the 8 first time we met, was in my front yard. And you gave 9 me these summonses that you've already defined -- 10 identified? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And I believe they sent you a letter telling 13 you that, since you had two different dates, that I had 14 a problem with the second date but I could make the 15 first date and that I would be down there and I would 16 bring a tape recorder and all that. Is that correct? 17 A. I believe so, yes. I don't recall that there 18 were two different dates. 19 Q. Okay. Well -- 20 A. But I did receive some correspondence from 21 you. 22 Q. Well, the dates are on here, just for the 23 record, not that it's that important. But one says 22 24 July -- 22nd day of July and the other one is 25th day 25 of July. And in my letter, I had asked that we combine 25 1 whatever we had to do on the 22nd because the 25th was 2 difficult for me. 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Okay. And do you recall what the first 5 question I asked you -- you opened the meeting, of 6 course, and you told me why we were having this meeting 7 and I then asked you a question. 8 A. I do not recall your first question? 9 Q. I asked you if you were the Secretary. Do you 10 recall that? 11 A. Okay. Yes, I recall. 12 Q. And you had a witness there, as well as did I; 13 is that correct? 14 A. Yes, that is correct. I believe -- I believe 15 that there was someone there with me. 16 Q. There was a lady. I think she had carpal 17 tunnel braces or something on her hands. She was having 18 trouble with her hands? 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. Now, I asked you if you were the Secretary. 21 What did you say? 22 A. I believe I said that I was not the 23 Secretary. I'm not the Secretary. 24 Q. And did you say anything more? 25 A. I don't recall. 26 1 Q. If I were to say that you said you were 2 delegated by the Secretary, would you agree with that? 3 A. I may have said that, yes, sir. 4 Q. Okay. Then I believe I asked you, If you're 5 delegated by the Secretary, could you please provide 6 your delegation order. Do you recall that? 7 A. I recall you asking that question. I don't 8 recall whether it was in the first meeting. We've had 9 like four meetings, so I don't recall. But I recall the 10 question. 11 Q. Okay. Well, just -- I guess it might be in 12 the way of testimony, and the judge might object. But I 13 asked that question every time I met with you. But 14 let's just say, I was trying to determine your 15 authority. 16 Did you not just tell this Court a moment 17 ago that if someone came up to your house and said that 18 they wanted to come in and check your meter or tell you 19 to go some place, then you would check their authority? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. Yes, you did. So it's okay if you want to 22 check somebody's authority. But if you come to 23 someone's house and order them by way of a piece of 24 paper and they come down to check your authority, you 25 feel you don't have to provide it; is that correct? 27 1 A. No, that is not correct. 2 Q. Well, then how, Mr. Dietz, did you show me 3 your authority? 4 A. I believe that I showed you my commission, 5 which is the authority that delegates me to do the 6 investigative work. 7 Q. Does it say that on the commission? Can you 8 read it for us? 9 A. I can read it for you, sure. This says, Vick 10 Dietz, who's signature and picture appear above, is duly 11 commissioned as revenue officer and has authority to 12 perform all duties conferred upon such officers under 13 all laws and regulations administered by the Internal 14 Revenue Service, including the authority to investigate 15 and to require and receive information as to all matters 16 relating to such laws and regulations, by authority of 17 the commissioner of Internal Revenue. And then it's 18 signed by the district director. 19 Q. Okay. Well, that sounds good, and I think 20 that most people might accept that. But as you read 21 this provision of the Internal Revenue code, it doesn't 22 say revenue officers are authorized. It says 23 specifically the Secretary is authorized. Now, if it 24 said the President is authorized, you wouldn't have the 25 authority, would you? 28 1 A. Can you repeat the question? 2 Q. Okay. If this provisions of the Internal 3 Revenue code, instead of saying the Secretary is 4 authorized, if it said the President is authorized, 5 would you feel that you have the authority to do these 6 things? 7 A. Probably not unless I was delegated by the 8 President. 9 Q. Exactly. Very good. But this says the 10 Secretary is authorized. 11 A. That is correct. 12 Q. Does that mean that you are authorized? 13 A. Mr. Goltz, all I can tell you is that that 14 excerpt of the Internal Revenue code says, just as you 15 said, the Secretary. I am not the Secretary, but I am 16 delegated to perform the investigative work or to seek 17 testimony. 18 Q. This specifically says the Secretary is 19 authorized to summon. Your document does not say to 20 summon, does it? 21 A. Which document? 22 Q. Your commission, whatever you called it. Your 23 pocket commission? 24 A. Oh, my commission? No, it does not. 25 Q. So how do I know that you are authorized? You 29 1 see, Mr. Dietz, this not about taxes. This is about 2 authority, and that's what we're after here. How do I 3 know -- as you said, you would determine authority 4 before you provided anything to anyone, how do I know 5 that you're authorized? 6 A. I provided you a copy of the delegation order, 7 a copy of which was available in my office. 8 Q. Was that the sheets that you Xeroxed out of 9 the Internal Revenue manual? 10 A. I don't recall. I recall that I gave you a 11 copy of the delegation order. I don't recall where I 12 got it from. 13 Q. You gave me a copy? 14 A. Do you have a copy? Do you have a copy? 15 Q. No. I don't have what you're talking about. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. I know you talked about something. As I 18 recall, it was Xerox copies from the Internal Revenue 19 manual. Where did you get your delegation order, the 20 copy apparently that you say you gave to me, which I do 21 not have, by the way? 22 A. I got a copy from whatever reference or 23 whatever source we had there in my office where I work. 24 Q. Do you have a copy with you? 25 A. I'd have to look, sir, in my file. 30 1 Q. Does it have the secretary's signature at the 2 bottom? 3 A. I don't recall. 4 Q. Does it have your name on it? 5 A. No, it does not have my name on it. 6 Q. How are you authorized? How are you 7 delegated? It sounds to me like what you're describing 8 is something that was printed out of a computer. 9 A. No. It was not printed out of a computer. 10 The employees who are delegated include revenue 11 officers, and I am a revenue officer. 12 Q. Well, I'm a member of the posterity of We the 13 People, as are you, as a matter of fact. And we don't 14 know what you have authority to do unless you can show 15 us. Now, you're saying that you are delegated. Yet all 16 you have is something from the Internal Revenue manual 17 that says revenue officers are delegated, and you claim 18 to be a revenue officer. You claim to be Vick Dietz. 19 Now, how can I believe any of this? You 20 have testified to this court that you are not Vick 21 Dietz. I thought you were a nice guy. I wanted to have 22 a beer with you. Now I don't know if I want to do that, 23 I find out you're not Vick Dietz. How do I know, as a 24 member of the posterity of We the People, who are 25 supposed to be the top of this organization, how do I 31 1 know you have authority? 2 THE COURT: I understand your point, and 3 you've made your point. You may move on to another line 4 of questions. 5 MR. GOLTZ: Thank you, Judge. 6 Q. (BY MR. GOLTZ) You testified just a moment ago 7 that -- and I don't recall the exact words. But after I 8 had visited you once and you weren't satisfied with the 9 response -- and you weren't satisfied with the response; 10 is that correct? I don't want to put words in your 11 mouth. Were you satisfied with my response the first 12 time I visited you? 13 A. What response was that? 14 Q. When I visited you in your office on 15 July 22nd, according to the summons, and whatever we did 16 in that office, you were not happy with the result; is 17 that correct? 18 A. You did not provide me the information that I 19 was seeking. 20 Q. Right. I did not provide you with the 21 information you were seeking. And as we already talked, 22 and not to -- I don't want to challenge the Court or 23 anything. But as we already talked, you did not provide 24 me with your authority to receive it. That's correct, 25 right? 32 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Okay. And then you said in the direct 3 testimony that I was sent a letter -- and maybe you 4 could describe better. I was sent a letter giving me 5 another opportunity, basically? 6 A. Yes. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. Is this the letter? 8 A. I can't see that far, sir. 9 MR. GOLTZ: May I approach? 10 THE COURT: Certainly. 11 MR. GOLTZ: Thank you. 12 A. This is a letter that was sent to you from, 13 looks like, Mr. Bruce Woe-pon's (phonetic) office. 14 Q. Is this the letter you were referring to? 15 A. When? 16 Q. When you testified on direct testimony, you 17 said I was sent a letter. What letter are you referring 18 to? 19 A. Okay. Well, there were several letters. You 20 sent me a letter. 21 Q. Yes, sir. 22 A. And I may have sent you a letter. 23 Q. No, sir. 24 A. I don't recall. But if you're referring to 25 that letter, that letter was sent to you from the 33 1 district council's office. That was in response to my 2 requesting their office to contact you so that you could 3 come in for a last-chance meeting. And that's what that 4 basically is. It's a last-chance meeting so that the 5 taxpayer can come in and provide the information that I 6 seek. And if we get the information, then we move on. 7 If we do not get the information, then it is referred 8 over to the U.S. Attorney's office. 9 Q. Thank you. Who sent me this letter? 10 A. I don't know, sir. It came from district 11 council's office, I believe. 12 Q. District council's office. Which means what 13 to me? 14 A. District council is our council in Austin, 15 Texas. Our attorneys. 16 Q. In the Internal Revenue Service? 17 A. Yes. Uh-huh. 18 MR. GOLTZ: May I approach the bench -- 19 the witness again, please? 20 THE COURT: You may. 21 Q. (BY MR. GOLTZ) Would you -- would you tell the 22 Court what the letterhead says? 23 A. U.S. Department Of Justice, United States 24 Attorney, Western District of Texas. 25 Q. Thank you. Now Mr. Dietz, you just testified 34 1 a moment ago that this came from the Internal Revenue 2 Service in Austin, Texas. 3 A. Well, that's normally where the -- the letters 4 are sent from. That's according to what I understand. 5 Q. But they didn't come from the Internal Revenue 6 Service, did it? It came from U.S. Department Of 7 Justice. 8 A. That's what the letterhead says. 9 Q. Yes. So what's going on? Is the IRS using 10 DOJ stationary to intimidate people to come down? Is 11 that what's going on? 12 A. I don't know, Mr. Goltz. I don't believe so. 13 Q. Do you remember the envelope? You probably 14 don't remember the envelope that it came in. But let me 15 just tell you what the envelope says so I don't have to 16 keep walking up there. It did come from Austin, Texas. 17 But it's stamped with a postage cancellation that says 18 E-File, which is an IRS thing. I can't believe that the 19 Department of Justice is pushing that, can you? Would 20 you like to see the envelope? 21 A. Please. 22 Q. Okay. Do you remember the letter? Remember I 23 sent you a copy of it? 24 A. Yes. I recall that you sent a copy. 25 Q. And do you remember that it even had errors in 35 1 it? 2 A. I believe there was an error regarding the 3 date of appearance. 4 Q. Do you remember when it was sent out? 5 A. No, sir, I do not. 6 MR. GARGOTTA: Your Honor, can we clarify 7 the record? First of all, I want to see this letter 8 that he's so concerned about. 9 MR. GOLTZ: Oh, I'm sorry. 10 MR. GARGOTTA: Your Honor, typically, 11 what happens on last-chance letters is they're sent out 12 under the authority of the U.S. Attorney's Office on 13 referral from the IRS. Mr. Goltz can attempt to ask 14 Mr. Dietz all the questions he wants. But what we need 15 to ask Mr. Dietz is did he send the letter. The answer 16 is, no, he didn't. That letter comes from referral from 17 the IRS to the Department of Justice. It's a 18 last-chance letter. Mr. Dietz has nothing to do with 19 that letter. 20 THE COURT: Okay. Then under -- if 21 Mr. Dietz is without knowledge, then he can't testify 22 about the matter. 23 MR. GOLTZ: I understand that, Judge, and 24 I certainly don't want to give the impression that I'm 25 challenging him or saying that he did something wrong. 36 1 Q. (BY MR. GOLTZ) I'm not doing that, Mr. Dietz. 2 What I'm saying is that we, the posterity of the 3 people -- of We the People have to believe something. 4 But when we get letters that allegedly come from the 5 Department of Justice, which are really just more 6 intimidation, then that's why we ask questions. 7 So I go back to our meetings. I was 8 trying to determine your authority. So the issue is, is 9 this about taxes or is this about authority? Do you 10 know? 11 A. What issue? 12 Q. The reason we're in this room today? 13 A. The issue is the testimony that I have asked 14 you to provide and the records for the summons. That's 15 my understanding. I don't know if you have a different 16 understanding, Mr. Goltz. But that's my understanding 17 of what the issue is. 18 Q. So whether you have the lawful authority to 19 receive this information is not of any concern to you. 20 You just want to receive it; is that correct? 21 A. No. It is -- it is a concern. 22 Q. Okay. So you want to obey the law, as do I? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. You referred, or maybe Mr. Gargotta 25 referred, to these documents 433-A, which you may be 37 1 able to ... 2 A. Yes. I'm familiar with the 433-A. 3 Q. Do these things contain an office of 4 management and budget number on it that says that it's 5 an official document that you can collect information 6 from the people upon? 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. Okay. But you know that if you, as a member 9 of the government, which I'm assuming here, I guess, 10 that the Internal Revenue Service is a member of the 11 government, an agency of the government -- and it may be 12 a bad assumption, too. But you understand that you're 13 not authorized to collect information from the people 14 without approval of the document on which the 15 information is to be collected by the office of 16 management and budget. Are you familiar with that? 17 A. No, I'm not. The only thing that I can state 18 to your question is that the 433-A collection 19 information statement and the 433-B collection statement 20 for businesses, those are standard forms that we use in 21 my line of work. They are required to be filled out by 22 the taxpayer. We ask them to sign and to date. And 23 before we can even move on with a case resolution, we 24 need to secure that information. If we do not, then 25 normally we have to answer and state -- tell our 38 1 superior why we have not secured that information. But 2 I'm familiar with the forms. It's a form that I use 3 every day in my line of work. 4 Q. And if people fill it out and if they sign it, 5 they are doing it voluntarily? 6 A. We ask them for the information, yes. And, 7 yes, the information is voluntary. 8 Q. So people do not have to provide the 9 information because this is voluntary? 10 A. It's voluntary information. We are not 11 twisting their arm to give us the information. Now, we 12 ask them to provide the information voluntarily. If 13 they refuse, then we can resort to the summons. 14 Q. And even if you don't have authority to issue 15 the summons, you can do that anyway? 16 A. Well, Mr. Goltz, I know that I'm authorized to 17 issue a summons. 18 Q. Okay. You know. Do you remember our last 19 meeting? Not our last meeting this past week but our 20 last meeting in your office? 21 A. In my office? Yeah. I recall -- yes, I 22 recall you were there with a witness. 23 Q. Can you describe what happened early on in 24 that meeting? 25 A. At the last meeting? Yes. I asked you 39 1 questions pertaining to your financial situation. You 2 were recording the interview. I was recording it as 3 well. And you basically did not answer, or you said it 4 was private. 5 Q. Do you recall the beginning, the very 6 beginning of the meeting, when right after I asked you 7 if you had been promoted to Secretary or whether you 8 had -- had received a copy of your delegation order, do 9 you remember what happened then? 10 A. No, I do not. 11 Q. If I were to say that -- if I were to say 12 this: Mr. Dietz, that's okay. Let's not worry about 13 the delegation order. I have here an affidavit, which I 14 would like you to sign. It says that I am lawfully 15 delegated by the Secretary of the Treasury to perform 16 all the -- that I'm authorized by the Secretary of 17 Treasury to perform all of these authorizations that 18 were given to the Secretary in 7602. And I handed you 19 that affidavit. Do you remember that? 20 A. I recall, yes. 21 Q. And what did you do? 22 A. I refused to answer it -- to sign it. 23 Q. You refused to sign it? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You refused to say on your own on paper in 40 1 affidavit format that you are authorized by the 2 Secretary, yet you claim to be authorized by the 3 Secretary? 4 A. I refused to sign the affidavit because I did 5 not know where it was coming from, who was the author of 6 the affidavit. 7 Q. You would have been the author of the 8 affidavit. 9 A. Well, you -- you gave me the affidavit, sir. 10 I did not write it. You provided me a statement, and I 11 don't recall what the statement said. But you were the 12 one who provided it. I didn't know who had written it, 13 and I refused to sign it. 14 Q. Okay. Well, would you have drafted one 15 yourself right then and signed it? 16 A. No, I would not have. 17 Q. You would not have? So, really, where it came 18 from and what the wording was, that's really not 19 material. You just wouldn't have signed an affidavit 20 saying you are delegated by the Secretary to perform 21 these tasks in 7602, which is to issue summons, to take 22 testimony, so forth? 23 A. That is correct. I would not have signed the 24 affidavit because I have my commission and I know that I 25 am commissioned to perform these duties. I do not need 41 1 to sign affidavits in my line of work. 2 Q. You do not need to prove your authority? 3 A. Mr. Goltz, I'm not understanding your 4 question. 5 Q. Okay. I'll say it this way: You know that 6 you're authorized, and everybody else should take it on 7 faith? Is that what you're saying? 8 A. No. I provided you a copy of the delegation 9 order, which you were after, you kept asking for. 10 Q. Sir, I wish you would quit -- 11 THE COURT: Excuse me. We've gone over 12 this. And we've gone over this. 13 MR. GOLTZ: Well, I didn't bring it up, 14 Judge. 15 THE COURT: I understand you don't 16 believe he was delegated or commissioned. I received 17 sufficient information through this testimony. I 18 believe he is commissioned, appointed, and delegated to 19 do the work of the service. And so let's move to 20 another issue. 21 MR. GOLTZ: You just made -- do I 22 understand that you just made a judicial determination 23 that he was delegated? 24 THE COURT: Yes. 25 MR. GOLTZ: Although he can't prove it? 42 1 THE COURT: He can prove it. He has 2 proved it. He has been presented here by an Assistant 3 United States Attorney, who is authorized to appear in 4 court and vouch for his witnesses. And this Assistant 5 United States Attorney has vouched for this witness, and 6 he has testified under oath. And I have made that 7 determination. Let's go to the next subject. 8 MR. GOLTZ: I'm challenging the 9 jurisdiction of Mr. Dietz. I'm challenging the 10 jurisdiction of Mr. Gargotta. And, ultimately, then I'm 11 challenging your jurisdiction in this matter. 12 THE COURT: That is fine. 13 MR. GOLTZ: And I think everything should 14 stop until we resolve the -- there needs to be evidence 15 provided of the jurisdiction. I have the Supreme Court 16 cases that require that. 17 THE COURT: A United States District 18 Judge can decide his jurisdiction. I have decided I 19 have jurisdiction over this matter. I have decided that 20 this is an appropriate officer of the Court appearing 21 and delegated by the Attorney General to appear here and 22 this is an appropriate officer of the Internal Revenue 23 Service appearing here. 24 I have made those determinations you have 25 the right to appeal those determinations. But I have 43 1 made those determinations. We need to go to the next 2 subject. Whatever other subject you wish to question 3 this witness about, you may. We're not going to go any 4 further regarding the delegation. I'm telling you that 5 we've finished that. So any other questions of this 6 witness? 7 MR. GOLTZ: Just so the Court doesn't 8 misunderstand me -- 9 THE COURT: I don't misunderstand you. 10 You're challenging the jurisdiction of everybody in this 11 Court. That's fine. You may challenge that. I'm 12 overruling that challenge and have told you that I have 13 jurisdiction; that Mr. Gargotta, as an officer of the 14 Justice Department, has the right and authority to 15 appear in the Court; and that Mr. Dietz, as an officer 16 of the Internal Revenue Service, has the right and 17 authority to appear in this Court; and they're delegated 18 to do the job they're doing here. 19 I've made that determination. You have 20 the right to appeal that determination whenever you 21 want, but that determination has been made. You've 22 challenged the jurisdiction. You may appeal from my 23 decision of jurisdiction. Let's move to another 24 question, another line of questioning. 25 MR. GOLTZ: Excuse me a moment. 44 1 THE COURT: The real issue here -- the 2 battle that brings us here is whether or not you 3 appeared at Mr. Dietz's office and answered the 4 questions and gave him the information that he 5 requested. That's the issue. He has testified that you 6 did not give him the information and answer the 7 questions that he presented. That's the real issue. 8 If you're here to contest that and say, 9 yes, I presented everything, I answered every question, 10 then you may come forward and testify. But he's already 11 testified he did, and he's answered your questions that 12 he did ask you to do that and that you didn't do it. So 13 that's the question. So if you wish to come and testify 14 that you did, I'll put you under oath and you may do 15 so. 16 But, you know, the issue here for me -- 17 the issue here for me is: Did you appear because I 18 signed an order saying that you were to appear and give 19 him the information that he requested and answer the 20 questions that he put to you. And he says, although you 21 appeared, you did not do that. And so, based upon his 22 testimony right now, it appears that you were in 23 contempt of court, of a court order. You're in my 24 presence. 25 And unless there's something changing 45 1 here, I will find you in contempt and I will authorize 2 these two United States marshals to take you into 3 custody and detain you until you present the information 4 and answer the questions. If you don't want to, then 5 they will detain you for up to 18 months. So that's -- 6 that's your option. 7 And if you have information and want to 8 present testimony about this, you may do so. But, 9 otherwise, that's going to be the result of this 10 hearing. I pleaded with you at our last meeting to 11 resolve this matter. I asked you. Mr. Gargotta would 12 be willing to help you resolve it. Mr. Dietz would be. 13 You've taken the position you don't want to resolve it. 14 If you don't -- 15 MR. GOLTZ: Not at all. I object to 16 that. I want to resolve it. 17 THE COURT: You have not shown any 18 willingness to resolve it. You resolve it by giving 19 these people the information they requested and 20 answering the questions. Mr. Gargotta? 21 MR. GARGOTTA: Forgive me for 22 interrupting, Your Honor. Pursuant to what you 23 requested last week, I did meet with Mr. Dietz Monday 24 morning. 25 MR. GOLTZ: I'm not Mr. Dietz. 46 1 MR. GARGOTTA: Forgive me. Mr. Goltz. 2 And pretty much what you've heard today is the substance 3 of our meeting. He challenged the authority of 4 Mr. Dietz to issue the summons. He challenged the 5 authority of the Internal Revenue code. And he did not 6 provide the information that we sought. I showed him 7 that I had a 433-A. I offered to go through it with 8 him. He declined to do that. 9 THE COURT: So we are here. If you want 10 to come now and give testimony that you have done 11 everything requested, you may do so. I'll put you under 12 oath. You can take the witness stand and give your 13 testimony and then be questioned by Mr. Gargotta. Is 14 that what you wish to do at this time? 15 MR. GOLTZ: Under duress, I will do that. 16 THE COURT: You don't have to do it. You 17 may do it or not do it. 18 MR. GOLTZ: I understand that. But I'm 19 doing it under duress and threat of going to prison. 20 And there's been no testimony -- very little testimony 21 here, and I'm being threatened to go to prison. And 22 under duress, I will take the stand. 23 THE COURT: I'm trying to make it very 24 clear to you how serious this matter is and how foolish 25 you are being. And I seem to not be having any success 47 1 at all. This seems to be a game to you. 2 MR. GOLTZ: No, sir. 3 THE COURT: It's very unfortunate. 4 Millions and millions -- hundreds of millions of 5 Americans, U.S. Citizens, file tax returns every year. 6 I gave you this morning the law regarding the matter. 7 The law passed by our -- by We the People, through their 8 elected representatives and their president. 9 And so I have no earthly idea what you 10 think you're doing here. But what you're doing is 11 contrary to the law, contrary to common sense, contrary 12 to tradition, practice, and everything else. But I will 13 allow you to do it. You say you're under duress. Why 14 is it that hundreds of millions of Americans do this 15 every year voluntarily, without a revenue agent looking 16 over their shoulder making them fill out the forms. 17 They do it because it's the law and because people in 18 America think goodness follow the law. 19 Now, Mr. Dietz, you may step down. I 20 will allow Mr. Goltz to testify. You may be sworn in by 21 Mr. Fry. You may sit down, and you may give me your 22 testimony and you can be examined by Mr. Gargotta after 23 you finish. 24 (Witness sworn) 25 THE COURT: Please be seated, and you can 48 1 tell me your story. Mr. Gargotta, I'll let him testify, 2 whatever he wants to say. And then you may 3 cross-examine. 4 MR. GARGOTTA: Thank you, Your Honor. 5 HENRY GOLTZ, 6 having been first duly sworn, testified as follows: 7 DIRECT EXAMINATION 8 MR. GOLTZ: I don't even know how to do 9 this in this case, Judge, because I don't know why I'm 10 here. I tried to explain to you, but you've already 11 made determinations, that you -- well, you've given me 12 the law. You know, you've given me sections of the 13 Internal Revenue code this morning, and I looked at 14 that. And I'm familiar with these sections. I'm very 15 familiar with much of the Internal Revenue code, much 16 more than this. And I've got a copy of it in my desk. 17 And one of those sections of the Internal 18 Revenue code dealt with authority, authority of people 19 to bring me into this room. And that section of the 20 Internal Revenue code seems to be ignored. And I know 21 you don't want to hear it any more. You've heard it. 22 And I'm tired of saying it. 23 But you've made mention last time we met 24 last week that this was just a tax matter. That there 25 were more important things in the world, more important 49 1 things in America. And that's right. There are more 2 important things. 3 But I don't view this as a tax matter. I 4 view this as one of those more important things. And 5 that is that everyone is obligated to obey the law. Me, 6 you, Mr. Dietz, Mr. Gargotta, everyone here in this 7 courtroom is obligated to obey the law. And so all I'm 8 asking is that they obey the law. 9 I'm not a tax protester. And anybody who 10 throws that out there is trying to put words in my mouth 11 that I don't state. I'm not challenging the 12 constitutionality of any of the tax laws. I think the 13 tax laws are fine. I don't have any problem with any of 14 the tax laws. All these that you gave me, I have no 15 problem with. I'm not challenging the constitutionality 16 of the Sixteenth Amendment. None of that. 17 I'm here to try to enforce these laws. 18 As we all should. And so when I see things like people 19 with aliases coming to my house -- and I didn't even 20 know it was an alias at the time -- and telling me I 21 have to give them information, yet they can hide behind 22 the alias because they don't want to give information to 23 someone else. When I see -- when I see things like 24 people violating provisions of the law even, the 25 Internal Revenue code -- I mean, not the Internal 50 1 Revenue code, but the income tax books themselves, I 2 question them. 3 You know, you say millions and millions 4 of people have filled out tax returns for years and 5 years and years. And I'm one of those. For 45 years. 6 Probably more than, Your Honor. And I didn't do it 7 because it's the law. I did it because everybody else 8 did it. I didn't even know the law. And those millions 9 and millions of people and people sitting right here in 10 this courtroom don't know the law because they never 11 looked it up. They get a tax booklet. 12 I mean the thing has got I didn't know 13 how many pages, 150 pages in there or something, 100 14 pages. There's nothing about the law. It has one page 15 that has some references to the law, and that's all. So 16 they don't do it because it's the law. They do it 17 because they're afraid of the government. 18 And so if we're to obey the law, then we 19 should obey the law. We don't say -- someone walks up 20 to you and say, Come into my office, fill out these 21 forms, answer these questions and you'll be fine. We 22 don't have to go to Abu Ghraib to seek torture to get 23 answers to questions. We have it right here in 24 San Antonio, and it's disgusting to me. It's disgusting 25 to me. That's one of the important things that you 51 1 talked about yesterday. To me, that's one of the 2 important things. 3 And if this -- this Court has an 4 opportunity now to say, All right. Let's follow the 5 law. Let's get the delegation order. I should not be 6 here, and Mr. Gargotta should never have filed a 7 petition with this court because Mr. Dietz didn't do his 8 job. It's way back there. It's not you. It's not the 9 Court. This Court has an opportunity to get it squared 10 away, and that's it. 11 I'm not playing a game. I'm really not. 12 As I said, for 45 years I filled out tax returns and 13 sent them in. I didn't know any better. I just did 14 it. There were forms in the booklet, and I filled them 15 out. And that's what most people do. I'm sure that's 16 what the marshals do. They don't study the law. 17 That's all I want to say in way of a 18 statement. I think -- I think you understand what I'm 19 saying. But I don't want you to think that I'm some 20 kind of protester. Protesters, you know, go out in the 21 street and protest. I'm not protesting. 22 I'm just trying to understand and then, 23 not only hold myself accountable to the law, but hold 24 the government accountable to the law because, in final 25 analysis, we the people created the government and the 52 1 government serves us. And even Abraham Lincoln and 100 2 and some years repeated, it's the government of the 3 people, by the people, and for the people. Not by man, 4 not by king. Thank you. 5 THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Gargotta? 6 MR. GARGOTTA: Thank you, Your Honor. 7 CROSS-EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. GARGOTTA: 9 Q. Mr. Goltz, would you state your full name for 10 the record, please. 11 A. I don't have a name. I am Henry Dale Goltz. 12 Q. You don't have a name, but you are Henry Dale 13 Goltz? 14 A. A name is a label that's attached to property, 15 like my dog has a name. But I don't have a name. I am 16 Henry Dale Goltz. 17 Q. Where do you live? What's your street 18 address? 19 A. 7434 Tall Cedar, San Antonio, Texas. 20 Q. Okay. How long have you lived there, sir? 21 A. Maybe ten years. 22 Q. Are you married? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. What's your wife's name? 25 A. Angelina. 53 1 Q. Okay. Do you have a mortgage against that 2 home? 3 A. Is this pertinent? 4 Q. Sir, I get to ask the questions. You decide 5 whether or not you want to answer them. 6 Do you have a mortgage against your home? 7 A. Yes, I do. 8 Q. Who holds the mortgage on your home? 9 A. I have no idea. 10 Q. Do you make mortgage payments monthly? 11 A. I do. 12 Q. How much? 13 A. $1,000. 14 Q. What's your home's value? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Do you get a statement from Bexar County, the 17 appraisal district? 18 A. Probably. 19 Q. Probably. You're not sure? You pay personal 20 property taxes don't you? 21 A. It's included in the mortgage payment. 22 Q. Okay. How much do you owe on the home? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. You don't know? Okay. You have that 25 information, though, somewhere at home, don't you? 54 1 A. I'm sure I have the information at home, yes. 2 Q. Okay. Because you certainly wouldn't want to 3 overpay your mortgage. You'd want to make sure that 4 amount would be correct? 5 A. I want to obey the law. 6 Q. What's your Social Security number? 7 A. I don't wish to answer that. 8 Q. Why? 9 A. Well, because even -- even the federal 10 government has said that's not for identification. It's 11 a personal -- it's a private -- it's private 12 information. 13 Q. Do you have a Social Security number? 14 A. (No response) 15 Q. It's a yes or no, sir. Do you have Social 16 Security number? 17 A. Do you mean has the government assigned a 18 Social Security number to me? 19 Q. Yes, sir. 20 A. I guess they did. 21 Q. Okay. When were you born? 22 A. When? 23 Q. Yes, sir. 24 A. I'm told -- I'm told I was born in May of 25 1940. 55 1 Q. Okay. You don't recall the date? 2 A. I'm told it's the 14th of May. 3 Q. Well, do you have any reason to believe that's 4 not accurate? 5 A. I have no reason to believe it. But if this 6 is a court of law, then I can't speak from firsthand 7 information about that. I can only speak from what I've 8 been told. 9 Q. I see. Do you have any dependents that live 10 with you at home? Any minor children or other people 11 that depend on you other than your wife? 12 A. My dog. 13 Q. Your dog? Okay. 14 A. He has a name. 15 Q. That's great. Are you self-employed, or do 16 you operate a business? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Are you currently working? Do you have an 19 employer? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Okay. When was the last time you worked, 22 sir -- were employed by someone else? 23 A. I can't -- not precisely, but 1960 -- I'm 24 sorry. 2002. 25 Q. And did you retire at that point, sir? 56 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And who did you work for in 2002? 3 A. I worked for a company out of North Carolina. 4 Q. What's the name of the company, sir? 5 A. SIGCOM. 6 Q. I beg your pardon? 7 A. SIGCOM. 8 Q. Could you spell that, please? 9 A. S-I-G-C-O-M. 10 Q. And what does SIGCOM do? What did you do for 11 SIGCOM? 12 A. I was a project manager. 13 Q. Okay. And when you say "project manager," for 14 what type of business? Construction or something else? 15 A. Something else. 16 Q. Okay. What was it, please? 17 A. Security. 18 Q. I beg your pardon? 19 A. Security systems. 20 Q. Okay. For homes? commercial? For who? 21 A. I can't talk about it. 22 Q. Why cant you talk about it? 23 A. Because it was for government work. 24 Q. It was for government work? 25 A. Yes, sir. 57 1 Q. Which government would that be? 2 A. That's a good question, too. 3 Q. Which government would that be? I'd like an 4 answer to my question. 5 A. More than one. 6 Q. More than one. Well, tell me which ones they 7 were or are. 8 A. I don't know if I can answer those questions. 9 Q. Why not? I'm sure you recall. So it's not a 10 matter of recollection. Is it matter of your refusal to 11 answer? 12 A. Is a matter of whether I'm authorized to 13 answer. You see, that's what we were discussing 14 earlier, is authorization. And this is a matter of 15 authorization, and I don't know if I'm authorized to 16 answer. 17 Q. Well, who would have to give you that 18 authorization? 19 A. Somebody else. 20 Q. Okay. Which government? It goes back to my 21 initial question. Who would you have to get the 22 authorization from? 23 A. If I had the authorization, I could give it to 24 you. 25 MR. GARGOTTA: Your Honor, he's being 58 1 nonresponsive. I'm going to object to the answer. 2 Q. (BY MR. GARGOTTA) It's a very simple 3 question. Who do you have the authorization from? 4 What's the name of the government? 5 THE WITNESS: Judge, am I required to 6 answer this question? 7 THE COURT: You can take the Fifth 8 Amendment that the answer would incriminate you. 9 Otherwise, you're required to answer the question. 10 THE WITNESS: Suppose I'm not authorized 11 to answer the question. 12 THE COURT: We can put the Courtroom 13 under seal. The record can be put under seal. As a 14 court, I have the authority to do that. But this is a 15 legitimate question, and it either must be answered or 16 you must take the Fifth Amendment. 17 Do you want me to clear the Courtroom and 18 put this matter under seal? I'll be glad to do that if 19 you wish to do that. 20 THE WITNESS: Well, the problem is 21 that -- that I may not be authorized to answer the 22 question even under seal. 23 THE COURT: Well -- 24 THE WITNESS: I don't know whether I'm 25 authorized to answer the question. 59 1 THE COURT: I'm telling you that you have 2 two choices: You can answer the question, or you can 3 refuse to answer on the grounds that it might 4 incriminate you. Those are your two choices. 5 THE WITNESS: Well, the Fifth -- 6 THE COURT: If you don't answer the 7 question, then you can be held in contempt for failure 8 to answer the question. If you want me to take security 9 measures on your behalf, I can clear the Courtroom and 10 we can put this matter under seal. I can do that. So 11 if you wish me to do that, you let me know. I can take 12 precautions if there's any concern. 13 But you only -- you only have two 14 choices: Answer or take the Fifth. And if you don't 15 answer a lawful question by an Assistant United States 16 Attorney, it's another ground for contempt. So you may 17 do whatever you wish on this. 18 But if you're worried about 19 confidentiality, I can clear this courtroom and put the 20 matter under seal. I will certainly accommodate you in 21 that regard. Do you want me to do that? Would you like 22 me to clear the Courtroom. 23 THE WITNESS: I would like for the 24 Court -- no, I don't want you to clear the Courtroom, 25 but I would like for the Court to evaluate the 60 1 importance of these questions. I don't -- I only want 2 to go so far. And if the Court can understand that and 3 evaluate whether these questions are important to the 4 purpose that the Court has ... 5 THE COURT: Can I tell you what 6 Mr. Gargotta is trying to do? 7 MR. GOLTZ: Yes, sir. 8 THE COURT: And what we've all been 9 trying to do. Is get the information so we can go 10 forward. That's what he's trying to do, so that you 11 don't have to go to prison. I am absolutely befuddled 12 by this, that you won't answer questions that Americans 13 answer every day in filling out their tax returns. 14 And this is -- to me, it's not only -- 15 you're not only being foolish, but you've created a very 16 sad prospect for yourself here and for your friends that 17 are out there. You're forcing -- you're making this 18 decision that gives me no choice but to put you in 19 detention and keep you there for so long as you don't 20 answer these questions, up to 18 months. 21 If that's your choice, that's your 22 choice. You need to tell us that. But Mr. Gargotta is 23 trying to avoid that inevitability by getting you to 24 answer questions that might help fill out these forms. 25 So if you're -- you know, I've never seen somebody that 61 1 won't take help from decent inquiry. But if you won't, 2 you won't. 3 So just tell me. If you don't want me to 4 clear the Courtroom, I won't. Just tell me, I'm not 5 going to answer the question. And then we'll go to the 6 next question. 7 THE WITNESS: But if I don't answer the 8 question, then you -- then you say I'm in contempt. 9 THE COURT: You will be in contempt, but 10 you're in contempt already. 11 THE WITNESS: So it's a threat. I'm in 12 contempt already? 13 THE COURT: You're in contempt from 14 everything I've seen so far, all the information I've 15 received, unless you've told me something different, 16 which you never have. I entered an order saying you 17 were to bring information to answer questions to 18 Mr. Dietz. You have -- Mr. Dietz said you didn't do 19 that. You have not challenged that. And so you're 20 already in contempt. 21 So, you know, just -- just kind of piling 22 it on at this time. But that's your choice. You know, 23 I've been a judge 12 years. I've had these cases by the 24 bushel-ful where people come in and say, you know, for 25 some reason or another, I'm not cooperating. You're 62 1 only the second person that I'm probably going to have 2 to detain and incarcerate. Most people I sit here I 3 say, Please, won't you just sit down with these people 4 and deal with them in a forthright way. I plead with 5 them to do that. And they always do it. 6 I am pleading, Mr. Gargotta is pleading, 7 Mr. Dietz is pleading, and you're telling us no deal. 8 You're leaving me no choice. And so we don't have to 9 drag this out. If you just don't want to answer 10 Mr. Gargotta's questions and you want to just deny the 11 help he's trying to give you, then that's fine. 12 I've got three United States marshals in 13 the Courtroom, and you can be taken into custody and we 14 can go from there. So, Mr. Gargotta, I am -- the 15 question will not be answered. You may go to the next 16 question. 17 MR. GARGOTTA: I believe they question I 18 asked -- I sort of lost track -- was -- 19 THE COURT: The government. 20 MR. GARGOTTA: Oh, the government and the 21 authority. 22 THE COURT: Right. 23 Q. (BY MR. GARGOTTA) How long did you work for -- 24 was it SIGCOM, the company you worked for, Mr. Goltz? 25 Is that the correct pronunciation? 63 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. How long did you work for them? 3 A. Ten years. 4 Q. Ten years. So you worked for them from 1992 5 through 2002; is that correct? 6 A. Approximately. 7 Q. Who did you work for before 1992? 8 A. AT&T. 9 Q. AT&T. And how long did you work for them, 10 sir? 11 A. Eighteen years. 12 Q. Eighteen years. So if my math is correct, 13 somewhere in the -- would that be in the '80s, or I 14 guess '70s that you started working with them. Is that 15 accurate? 16 A. If that's what you calculated. 17 Q. Well, tell me if you recall. 18 A. I don't recall the dates. 19 Q. And what did you do for AT&T, sir? 20 A. I was a project manager. 21 Q. Okay. In what capacity? What did you do for 22 AT&T? Thank you for your job description, but what did 23 you actually do for them? 24 A. Manage projects. 25 Q. What kind of projects? 64 1 A. Communication and security projects. 2 Q. Okay. Was it similar to the work you did 3 with, is it SIGCOM, I believe you said, type of work? 4 A. Yes. Similar. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. But not the same. 7 Q. And before AT&T, who did you work for? 8 A. I don't recall. 9 Q. You don't recall? Well, did you -- do you 10 have a GED? Did you graduate from high school? 11 A. Yes, I graduated from high school. 12 Q. Where did you graduate from high school from? 13 What city and what state? 14 A. In Chicago. 15 Q. In Chicago, Illinois? 16 A. That's right. 17 Q. Okay. Did you go to college? 18 A. I did. 19 Q. Where did you go to college? 20 A. In Illinois. 21 Q. Which college in Illinois? 22 A. University of Illinois. 23 Q. Okay. Did you get a degree from University of 24 Illinois? 25 A. Yes, I did. 65 1 Q. And what was your degree in? 2 A. Electrical engineering. 3 Q. Electrical engineering. Did you get an 4 advanced degree after that or just your BS? 5 A. Yes, I got an advanced degree. 6 Q. What did you get? 7 A. Master of business administration. 8 Q. And where did you receive that degree from, 9 sir? 10 A. In Georgia. 11 Q. In Georgia. Do you remember when that was? 12 A. I don't -- '78. I don't know. 13 Q. Okay. So you have a -- a degree in electrical 14 engineering from the University of Illinois and a 15 master's in business administration from the University 16 of Georgia. Is that accurate, sir? 17 A. From Georgia State University. 18 Q. Excuse me. Georgia State University? Have 19 you received any other degrees? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Okay. So you're an educated man. You have 22 two degrees. You're an educated individual. Would you 23 not agree? 24 A. I studied. I read and I try to learn. 25 Q. That wasn't my question. My question was: 66 1 You're an educated individual. You have two degrees 2 from college. Is that not correct? 3 A. I've been educated. Whether I'm educated or 4 not, I'll leave for someone else to decide. 5 Q. Okay. Since 2002 have you worked at all? 6 Have your received money for any services that you've 7 provided to anyone? 8 A. I've provided services. I've received money, 9 yes. 10 Q. Okay. What kind of services have you 11 provided, sir? 12 A. We've already talked about that. Project 13 management services. 14 Q. Since -- since 2002? 15 A. Oh, since 2002? 16 Q. Yes, sir. Since 2002 have you worked and 17 provide services? 18 A. No. 19 Q. So you've not been paid or compensated in any 20 way since 2002 for work you might have done? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. Okay. What kind of income do you receive 23 since 2002? Can you describe to the Court the type of 24 income you receive? 25 A. Yes, I can. 67 1 Q. Would you please tell the Court what that is? 2 A. Yes. I get -- I get a check from the Social 3 Security Administration, and I have a pension payment. 4 Q. So you get Social Security benefits from the 5 United States Federal Government, right? 6 A. That's not my characterization. 7 Q. Well, whether it's your characterization or 8 not, you get Social Security benefits from the 9 United States Government, do you not? Yes or no? 10 A. No, it's not a yes or no. 11 Q. Yes, it is a yes or no. Do you get Social 12 Security benefits from the United States Government? 13 Yes or no? 14 A. It's not a benefit. 15 Q. It's not a benefit? What would you describe 16 it as? 17 A. It's a return of taxes paid. 18 Q. Of taxes that you've paid? 19 A. Sure. 20 Q. Okay. How much do you get monthly on that? 21 A. From Social Security? 22 Q. Yes, sir? 23 A. It's about $1,200, $1,300. Something like 24 that. 25 Q. Okay. Then you mentioned your pension. Is 68 1 that pension from AT&T and then the other employer? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Okay. And how much do you get from them 4 monthly? 5 A. About $1,000. 6 Q. Okay. Is that total or from each one of them? 7 A. No. It's total. 8 Q. Okay. So you get about 12 to $1,300 a month 9 from Social Security. And you get about what? You said 10 $1,300 or $1,000 from pension. Is that accurate? 11 A. That's accurate. 12 Q. Okay. Do you have an IRA? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Okay. Do you have a 401K program or anything 15 like that? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Okay. Do you have any other form of 18 retirement income? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Okay. Does your wife work, sir? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Okay. Does she receive an income? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Okay. She doesn't receive -- does she receive 25 Social Security? 69 1 A. No. 2 Q. Okay. So she doesn't -- she never worked, so 3 she doesn't receive Social Security? Or she's not old 4 enough to get it? 5 A. She's not old enough to get it. 6 Q. I see. Okay. But she's currently not 7 working, and she doesn't own a business? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. Okay. Do you have a checking account, sir? 10 A. No. Well, yeah. 11 Q. Okay. Where is that at? 12 A. It's at the credit union, Security Federal. 13 Q. Okay. And do you know what your checking 14 account number is? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Okay. But you -- I assume you or your wife 17 have your checkbook that has the checking account number 18 on it. Is that accurate? 19 A. I'm sure the number is accurate. 20 Q. But is it accurate that you have a checking 21 account with the checking account number on the actual 22 check? 23 A. Sure. 24 Q. So you can get that information rather easily 25 if you needed to get it? 70 1 A. If I needed to get it. 2 Q. All right. What about any savings accounts? 3 Do you have any savings accounts? 4 A. I guess so, yes. 5 Q. One? 6 A. One. 7 Q. Where is that, sir? 8 A. Security Federal. 9 Q. So you have a checking account with Security 10 Federal and a savings account with Security Federal; is 11 that correct? 12 A. I can't remember exactly what the name of it. 13 Q. SSCFU? 14 A. FCU, yeah. 15 Q. Okay. So do you have any other accounts with 16 any other institution? 17 A. No. 18 Q. All right. So we've established that you've 19 got a checking account and you've got a savings account. 20 A. Yes, you've established that. 21 Q. Okay. No other accounts that you're aware of 22 with any other institutions? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Okay. Do you have any investments, sir? That 25 would include stocks, bonds, mutual funds, stock 71 1 options, CDs. Do you have any of that? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Okay. Do you have any cash on hand? Do you 4 have money in the bank? 5 A. Ten bucks. 6 Q. Okay. Do you have any available credit to 7 you? Do you have credit cards that you use that have 8 credit on them? 9 A. Credit cards that have credit on them? 10 Q. Yes, sir. That you could use them to charge 11 against? 12 A. Do you mean do they have balances? 13 Q. I'm sorry. I'll be clear. Do they have 14 balance due on those credit cards? Do you owe money on 15 credit cards? 16 A. Probably. 17 Q. Okay. How many credit cards do you have? 18 A. Maybe a dozen. 19 Q. A dozen. Could you identify who you have 20 credit cards with, please? 21 A. With all you can think of. Visa, MasterCard, 22 Discover, American Express. I've got them all. 23 Q. You've got them all. Okay. And do you use 24 them regularly? 25 A. I use them when it's convenient or necessary. 72 1 Q. Does your wife have credit cards? 2 A. I guess so, yes. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. Probably same as mine. 5 Q. Do you have life insurance, sir? 6 A. You guys are something else. 7 Q. I'm sorry. I don't understand your point. 8 Well, let me ask you this -- we'll come back to that. 9 Do you have a car? 10 A. I have an automobile, yes. 11 Q. Okay. Do you own it outright, or do you owe 12 something on it? Is there a lender on the car? 13 A. Sorry? 14 Q. Is there -- do you owe money to a lender for 15 the ownership of your car? Did you borrow money to buy 16 your car? 17 A. I don't owe money on the car. 18 Q. Okay. So you own it. There's no debt or 19 balance owed on it; is that correct? 20 A. Well, there's no debt on it. I believe the 21 State owns it. 22 Q. Why do you say the State owns it? 23 A. Because I do not have the certificate of 24 origin. They do. 25 Q. Okay. Would you tell the Court what kind of 73 1 car you have? 2 A. Sure. 3 Q. Would you please tell him? 4 A. It's a 1996 Isuzu Rodeo. 5 Q. Okay. Do you own any other vehicles? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What are those, please? 8 A. I own a 1998 Cadillac Deville. 9 Q. Okay. Do you owe on that? Does someone hold 10 a lien against the car? Do you owe a balance on the 11 car? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. Okay. So you own that free and clear? 14 A. With the same provision. 15 Q. I understand. Does your wife own any 16 vehicles? 17 A. We own everything together. 18 Q. Okay. So you-all own two cars, an Isuzu and a 19 Cadillac. Is that accurate? 20 A. That's accurate. 21 Q. Are there any other cars that you own? 22 A. (Shakes head) 23 Q. Have you given a car to anyone? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Okay. Are there any -- and I know the answer 74 1 to this, but I'm going to ask you anyway. Are there any 2 garnishments against any wages you might have right now, 3 sir? 4 A. I have no wages. I have no garnishments. 5 Q. Are there any judgments against you? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. Other than this lawsuit, are you a party to 8 any other lawsuit currently? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And would you identify how you're a party to 11 that lawsuit? 12 A. It's a class action lawsuit, which I'm a 13 member of a class. 14 Q. Okay. And who is the lawsuit filed against? 15 A. The United States of America. 16 Q. I see. And what's the purpose of the lawsuit? 17 A. To establish the law that exists and the right 18 of the government -- or the responsibility of the 19 government to answer petitioners. 20 Q. Okay. Where did you file that lawsuit, sir? 21 A. I didn't file it. 22 Q. Where is it filed, then? 23 A. D.C. 24 Q. In D.C. And how many members are -- how many 25 people are in that class? 75 1 A. I don't know. 2 Q. Any idea? Rough estimate? 3 A. There's thousands. 4 Q. Okay. Do you know when that lawsuit was 5 filed? 6 A. Not exactly. 7 Q. Okay. Has there been a trial in that case or 8 a ruling on the merits of the lawsuit? 9 A. There's been summary judgments issued. 10 Q. Okay. For who? 11 A. For the United States of America. 12 Q. Okay. So the lawsuit -- 13 A. In the United States of America Court, by the 14 way. 15 Q. Understood, sir. So the lawsuit was filed, a 16 class action against the United States, and the 17 United States prevailed in summary judgment; is that 18 correct? 19 A. I don't like the wording, but that's correct. 20 Q. Okay. Have you ever filed bankruptcy? 21 A. No, sir. 22 Q. Have you transferred any assets in the last 23 10 years, to anybody else, that you own? 24 A. I'm sure I've transferred something in the 25 last 10 years. 76 1 Q. Okay. Do you recall what it was? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Okay. Are you the beneficiary of a trust or 4 an estate? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Okay. Do you expect any unusual increases in 7 your income over the next couple of years? 8 A. Anything above zero would be unusual. 9 Q. Okay. Well, let's put it this way. Maybe I 10 can phrase the question a little bit better for you. 11 Aside from your Social Security and the pension you're 12 receiving, do you expect to receive any other income in 13 the next couple of years? 14 A. I do not expect it. 15 Q. Okay. Let's go back to life insurance. I 16 don't know that you answered my question. Are you -- do 17 you have life insurance? 18 A. There's life insurance on my body, yes. 19 Q. Okay. Who is it with? 20 A. Primerica. 21 Q. Okay. And who's the beneficiary under that 22 life insurance? 23 A. My wife. 24 Q. Okay. Does it have any cash value? 25 A. No. 77 1 Q. Okay. Is there any outstanding loan balance 2 against it? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Okay. Do you lease any automobiles, sir, or 5 vehicles? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you own any other real estate other than 8 your homestead, the home you live in? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Okay. So you don't own a vacant lot or a 11 rental home or anything like that? 12 A. I do not. 13 Q. Okay. Let's talk a little bit about your 14 personal assets. I assume you have furniture in your 15 home? 16 A. Yes, I have furniture in my home. 17 Q. Okay. Personal effects as well -- jewelry, 18 clothing, and things of that nature? 19 A. Thing of that nature. 20 Q. Okay. Thank you. Any expensive artwork. 21 A. No. 22 Q. Any expensive jewelry? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Anything of value, let's say, in excess of a 25 couple of hundred dollars that you have in your home, 78 1 outside of the furniture or things like that? 2 A. I don't know. Maybe my wife has a ring that's 3 worth more than a couple of hundred dollars, though. 4 Q. Anything other than that, though? I 5 understand your point. 6 A. Jewelry or -- no. 7 Q. Okay. And you've already indicated you don't 8 own or operate a business; is that correct? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. And your wife does not own or operate a 11 business either? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. You don't have any accounts receivable that 14 are payable to you, do you, sir? Does anyone owe you 15 money that they need to pay you? 16 A. You mean outside of the United States of 17 America? 18 Q. Well, I'm not going to stipulate to that. But 19 outside of the United States of America, does anyone 20 else owe you money? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Okay. And just so I'm clear on your income, 23 you don't work currently. You're not being paid wages 24 from anyone. You receive Social Security, I believe you 25 said, of about, what, $1,200 a month? Is that correct? 79 1 A. That's about right. 2 Q. Okay. And then you get a pension income of 3 roughly $1,000 a month. Is that accurate? 4 A. That's close, yeah. I don't know exactly. 5 Q. Okay. Fairly close, within the ballpark, sir? 6 A. Uh-huh. 7 Q. Do you get interest from dividends? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Okay. Do you get any rental income? 10 A. No. 11 Q. You don't get any child support or alimony, do 12 you? 13 A. No. 14 Q. What about your wife? Does she get any of 15 those -- wages? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Social Security? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Okay. Pensions? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Net income or rental income? 22 A. No rental income. 23 Q. Okay. What do you think you spend per month 24 on food and clothing? 25 A. Very little. 80 1 Q. Well, could you give me a number, please? 2 A. I don't know how without looking at -- you 3 know, trying to do calculations and estimating and all 4 that. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. Very little. 7 Q. You indicated that you have a mortgage, and 8 that's $1,000 a month. Is that accurate, sir? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. What do you think your utilities cost 11 you a month? 12 A. Well, I don't know. Electricity probably 13 costs 100 bucks a month and water costs about 50 bucks a 14 month. 15 Q. Okay. Do you pay for any transportation other 16 than gas for your vehicles? Bus or anything like that? 17 A. No. 18 Q. All right. What about health care? Do you 19 have to pay for health care? 20 A. I have Medicare. 21 Q. You have Medicare. So you get -- you get 22 Medicare benefits? 23 A. I paid for those benefits over the last 45, 50 24 years, yes. 25 Q. I see. Okay. Now, let's talk a little bit 81 1 about taxes. Let's put aside your federal taxes. You 2 pay sales tax when you buy things, don't you? 3 A. Unfortunately. 4 Q. And you pay -- I assume you pay personal 5 property taxes on your home. You pay the ad valorem 6 taxes for that, don't you? 7 A. I think it's all included in the payment. 8 Q. Okay. But the question is: Do you pay the 9 ad valorem taxes on your home? Yes or no? 10 A. Well, yes. It's included in the payment. 11 Q. Okay. Do you have to pay for your life 12 insurance? 13 A. Sure. 14 Q. Okay. How much is that per month? 15 A. I don't pay by the month. It's probably about 16 $100 a month. 17 Q. Okay. Do you have any secured debt, debt 18 which you owe a note for an encumbrance, other than your 19 home? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Okay. Any other expenses you can think of 22 that I haven't covered with you that you pay on a 23 monthly basis? 24 A. I don't know. Payments on credit cards. 25 Q. Okay. But you don't recall how much that is 82 1 on a monthly basis? 2 A. Well, it varies. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. Because I don't use the credit cards to run a 5 balance on. I just use them for convenience, as I said. 6 Q. I see. Do you know what that averages out to 7 on a monthly basis? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Okay. And, you know, you mentioned the 10 mortgage and your credit cards and things of that 11 nature. When you got the -- when you borrowed money or 12 you got the credit card, you had to provide financial 13 information to those institutions, didn't you? I mean, 14 they didn't loan you the money without providing 15 information and background about yourself? 16 A. I didn't borrow any money on my credit cards. 17 Q. All right. But when you went to apply for 18 them, you had to provide financial information? 19 A. Yes, I did. That was a voluntarily act. 20 Q. But, nonetheless, you provided your name, 21 Social Security number, income, expenses? 22 A. Because I chose to volunteer. I didn't have 23 to. I don't have to have credit cards. As I said, I 24 just have them for convenience, and they are -- they 25 have requirements, so if I want it, I fill out the form. 83 1 Q. And same thing for your mortgage. You had to 2 fill out a financing statement? 3 A. Sure. 4 Q. To demonstrate to the mortgage company that 5 you could pay the mortgage, right? 6 A. Right. 7 MR. GARGOTTA: May I have a moment, 8 please? 9 THE COURT: You may. 10 Q. (BY MR. GARGOTTA) A couple of more questions, 11 Mr. Goltz. Now, you provided some returns, as you've 12 indicated on the record previously and you've heard from 13 Mr. Dietz, in which you listed zero throughout the 14 return, income and expenses. It would seem, based upon 15 your testimony today, you're going to need to amend 16 those returns. Will you voluntarily do that? 17 A. Those returns were signed under penalty of 18 perjury. 19 Q. Yes, sir. I understand that. 20 A. So if -- if I amend it, then I'm admitting 21 that I committed perjury; is that correct? 22 MR. GARGOTTA: No, sir. Your Honor, I'm 23 simply giving him the opportunity to amend the returns 24 to reflect the testimony that's been provided this 25 morning. 84 1 THE COURT: If the federal government 2 wanted to charge you with a crime, they could have 3 already done so. They have not done so. These two 4 people are trying to get this resolved. They're telling 5 you to amend. If you will amend the return to reflect 6 this information that it is accurate, there is going to 7 be no further penalty involved in that. 8 There are some people in this Courtroom 9 trying to be reasonable, and it's Mr. Gargotta and 10 Mr. Dietz. Will you amend that return and sign the 11 amended return based upon the information you've given 12 here today? 13 THE WITNESS: Can we talk about this a 14 bit before I answer the question? 15 THE COURT: You know, I'm trying to be 16 patient. I've got a day of hearings and another hearing 17 set at 9:30. I have people waiting for that hearing. 18 MR. GOLTZ: May I say something in that 19 regard? 20 THE COURT: You know -- 21 MR. GOLTZ: I mean, I'm not trying to -- 22 THE COURT: -- you can push this too far. 23 MR. GOLTZ: I don't want to push it. 24 That's why I'm asking you that question. 25 THE COURT: You're pushing this too far. 85 1 Now, I've tied up three United States marshals. Their 2 jobs are very difficult. I've tied them up here for 3 over an hour. They're either going to take you into 4 custody or you're going to agree to do this. If you say 5 I'm doing it under duress, that's what you say. But 6 either you're going to agree to do it or not or you're 7 going to go into custody. 8 THE WITNESS: I will fill them out. I 9 will amend them to whatever requirement Mrs. Dietz has, 10 under duress. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 MR. GARGOTTA: In addition, Your Honor, 13 he did provide some -- I went through the 433 with him, 14 and he did provide some of the information you need. 15 But as I'm sure you noticed, we need information about 16 the mortgage company. We need the Social Security 17 number. We need the checking account numbers. We need 18 that information, which I know that Mr. Goltz has. He 19 obviously has it. Will he provide that information to 20 us voluntarily? 21 THE COURT: Will you do that? 22 THE WITNESS: Will I provide it 23 voluntarily? 24 THE COURT: Will you provide it 25 voluntarily or otherwise? 86 1 THE WITNESS: Under duress, I'll provide 2 anything, yes, sir. 3 MR. GARGOTTA: When? 4 THE WITNESS: At your convenience. 5 MR. GARGOTTA: Well -- 6 THE COURT: What about -- I've got 7 another hearing here. 8 MR. GARGOTTA: And I know I've tied your 9 time up, Your Honor. 10 THE COURT: No, no. That's not a 11 problem. I think your phone is available. If 12 Mr. Goltz doesn't have the information here, he can 13 phone his bank. He can phone his mortgage company. 14 I'll make phones available. If not, if he needs to go 15 and come back and see you and Mr. Dietz this afternoon, 16 that can be done. But it will have to be done today or 17 tomorrow -- I'll give today or tomorrow -- and then I 18 will need notice that it's been done or I'm going to 19 have to assemble these marshals again. 20 MR. GARGOTTA: Your Honor, if I may ask, 21 I would prefer -- I will do whatever you tell me to do. 22 But I would prefer if Mr. Goltz would simply bring the 23 information to Mr. Dietz. 24 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Dietz, are you 25 available today or tomorrow? 87 1 MR. DIETZ: Yes, Your Honor. I've got 2 a -- Your Honor, I've got a commitment this afternoon, 3 but I will be available until about 2:00 o'clock this 4 afternoon. 5 THE COURT: What about tomorrow? 6 MR. DIETZ: I will be available tomorrow 7 all day. 8 THE COURT: Okay. Then we will make it 9 tomorrow morning at your office. 10 MR. DIETZ: Very good. 11 MR. GARGOTTA: What time, Your Honor? 12 THE COURT: 10 o'clock. 13 MR. GARGOTTA: And, Your Honor, again, at 14 the risk of belaboring the point, if Mr. Goltz does not 15 provide the information -- I think we've made it 16 abundantly clear what we're seeking -- what will be the 17 consequence of his failure to comply? 18 THE COURT: The order is still in effect, 19 and failure to comply, I'll either have -- at that point 20 I'll just send the marshals out. So if you're not in 21 Mr. Dietz's office at 10 o'clock in the morning with the 22 information requested and Mr. Gargotta so informs me by 23 Monday morning, marshals will come. That's the 24 situation. Is there anything further that you need? 25 MR. GARGOTTA: No, Your Honor. 88 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 MR. GARGOTTA: And Mr. -- if I may, 3 Mr. Dietz will be available if he wants help filling out 4 his return. He will assist him; is that correct? 5 MR. DIETZ: I will assist him. 6 THE COURT: Mr. Goltz, you may step down. 7 MR. GARGOTTA: Thank you, Your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Thank you. We're going to be 9 in recess for about 10 minutes. Thank you, Marshals. I 10 appreciate your presence. 11 (Proceedings concluded at 10:04 a.m.) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 89 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT ) 2 WESTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS ) 3 I, Arlinda Rodriguez, Deputy Court Reporter in and 4 for the United States District Court, Western District of 5 Texas, San Antonio Division, do hereby certify that the above 6 and foregoing contains a true and correct transcription of all 7 portions of evidence and other proceedings requested in 8 writing by counsel for the parties to be included in this 9 volume of the Reporter's Record, in the above-styled and 10 numbered cause, all of which occurred in open court or in 11 chambers and were reported by me. 12 I further certify that this Reporter's Record of the 13 proceedings truly and correctly reflects the exhibits, if any, 14 admitted by the respective parties. 15 I further certify that the total cost for the 16 preparation of this Reporter's Record is $________ and was 17 paid/will be paid by _________________________. 18 WITNESS MY OFFICIAL HAND this the _____ day of 19 ________ 2006. 20 21 _________________________________ Arlinda Rodriguez, Texas CSR 7753 22 Expiration Date: 12/01/06 In the State of Texas, County of Bexar 23 Firm Registration No. 79 10100 Reunion Place, Ste. 660 24 San Antonio, Texas 78216 25 (210) 340-6464